This week, Errin is joined by her friend Jemele Hill, the sports journalist, to talk all things women’s basketball. Jemele breaks down how far women’s basketball has come —as evidenced by this year’s women’s NCAA tournament —while also highlighting how far it has to go when it comes to media coverage and pay equity.
Listen or subscribe onApple Podcasts|Spotify|Amazon Music|YouTubeor wherever you get your podcasts.
On today’s episode
Our host
Errin Hainesis The 19th’s editor-at-large and writer ofThe Amendmentnewsletter. An award-winning journalist with nearly two decades of experience, Errin was previously a national writer on race for the Associated Press. She’s also worked at the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post.
Follow Errin on Instagram@emarvelousand X@errinhaines.
Today’s guest
Jemele Hill is the Emmy Award–winning former cohost of ESPN’s SportsCenter and 2018 NABJ Journalist of the Year. Hill is the Co-founder of Lodge Freeway Media and a contributing writer for The Atlantic, where she covers the intersection of sports, race, politics, and culture. She is the host of Jemele Hill is Unbothered on Spotify and also the producer of a Disney/ESPN documentary with Colin Kaepernick. She grew up in Detroit, graduated from Michigan State University, and now lives in Los Angeles.
Follow Jemele Hill on X @jemelehill and Instagram @jemelehill.
The newsletter for the new electorate, delivered to your inbox every other week
Episode transcript
The Amendment podcast transcripts are automatically generated by a third-party website and may contain typos or other errors. Please consider the official record for The Amendment podcast to be the audio publicly available wherever you listen to podcasts.
Errin:
Holla! We hear you much better now.
Errin:
Hey, y’all. Welcome to The Amendment, a weekly conversation about gender, politics and power from the 19th News and Wonder Media Network. I’m your host, Errin Haines. So, finally, here we are in 2024, and everyone is watching women’s sports. Amendment hive, I am a huge fan of the women’s game, which has exploded in popularity over the last decade. But before we start cheering too much, I also have to point out that there are still considerable disparities in how women are treated. WNBA players make far less than their male counterparts in the NBA, resulting in many women playing overseas. There’s a lack of equity when it comes to resources like workout facilities and revenue-sharing in their respective leagues. But, honestly, is anyone surprised? The sports world mirrors the real world, and in too many areas of society, inequity is still the name of the game.
Errin:
Economic disparities continue to run rampant in America, and the reasons are gendered, racial and political. Women are typically paid just 78 cents for every dollar paid to men, and that gap jumps more when talking about women of color. By the way, guess who the majority is in the WNBA? Black women. But there is hope. Ratings for the women’s NCAA tournament are rising thanks to stars like Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese and Dawn Staley’s expert coaching in South Carolina. Shout out to Dawn Staley! Icon. Some of these stars are making more money than the professionals. Will the success of the NCAA tournament and the growth of the women’s game finally lead to higher pay for all women’s basketball players? Alright, y’all know I had to bring in my friend, Jemele Hill, to break this down. Jemele is a sports journalist. She’s been writing and thinking about the intersections between sports, politics and gender for years, and is cooler than a polar bear’s toenails. Jemele, welcome to The Amendment.
Jemele:
Thank you for having me, E. It’s good to be on with you.
Errin:
It is good to be on. It’s good for us to be on together.
Jemele:
Yes.
Errin:
Well, look, I mean, by the time this podcast episode airs, we will have a national champion. Do you want to make a prediction for who is going to be our national champion this year in women’s basketball?
Jemele:
Ugh. You know, this is a little tougher than I thought, you know, because before — I mean, you’d asked me three months ago, hell, even when we had Paris, “Who do you think is gonna win the national championship?”Like, I think I really like South Carolina. But the tournament…what happens in every NCAA tournament — men’s or women’s — is that the team that you sometimes saw during the season is not the team that shows up in the tournament. Good or bad. There’s a part of me that is like, “Man, this kind of feels like Iowa’s year,” you know? They’ve taken down the defending champions. They have a generational talent in Caitlin Clark. That being said, I also feel like it’s South Carolina’s year. So I am, you know — and this is not to, uh, obviously I’m not disparaging Iowa in any way, but, you know — I’m one of those people. I like to see the task completed. You’re already undefeated at this point.
Errin:
Already. Let’s get it done.
Jemele:
I want to see Dawn Staley and the South Carolina program be added to the collection of teams to go wire-to-wire undefeated. I do. I was like, you know, they — as you said — they were a game away from doing it last year. I feel like this is the mission, and it’ll be interesting because Iowa definitely has something to prove against LSU. South Carolina has something to prove against Iowa. I hope we get the South Carolina [against] Iowa final. No disrespect to UConn or NC State. Both great teams. But I think we need a rematch, and we need a rematch in the championship. Uh, and so I’m gonna still pick South Carolina, but, you know, you could call me a waffler, but I honestly would not be surprised if I won it all.
Errin:
Yeah, that’s about where I am too. I mean, look, we got a revenge plot.
Jemele:
Yep.
Errin:
We got yet another way for Dawn Staley in South Carolina to make history. This is her third time going for a title, fifth time in the Final Four in eight years. I mean, we can’t say enough about Dawn Staley and her legacy, but what would you say, really, about where she is now potentially going up against UConn here? That whole dynasty, I mean. But she’s building a dynasty of her own.
Jemele:
She has built — I think we could use the past tense — she has built a dynasty at South Carolina. I mean, when you think about where that program was when Dawn Staley first took it over versus where it is now, it just shows that with patience, time, recruiting, investment, what is possible. And, um, maybe one of my favorite statistics about this Final Four —and I’m gonna explain why — is the fact that UConn has not won of National Championship in 10 years.
Errin:
Hello!
Jemele:
And I don’t say this to disrespect UConn, but I just remember when UConn was preeminent — how many media people, how many just general commentators said, “UConn’s dominance was bad for basketball, bad for women’s college basketball.” Meanwhile, we saw UCLA, you know, back in the day rattle off like 50 11 [sic] championships in a row.
Errin:
50 11. Yes.
Jemele:
I don’t think anybody said that was bad for the growth of men’s basketball.
Jemele:
UConn’s dominance is an important part of the story of women’s college basketball because it forced other teams and other programs to raise their level.
Errin:
Yes.
Jemele:
It forced them to say, “Hey, unless you wanna get smoked by this team by a hundred, and embarrassed by this team every year, you will figure out a way to build a winning program.” And when I first started covering women’s basketball in the late nineties, it was UConn and Tennessee, back and forth, ping-ponging championships.
Errin:
Yep.
Jemele:
And now you see so many different teams and programs in it because there is more widespread talent. This is the most skill… the most athletic that the game has ever been. You see now more programs, more colleges, investing in their women’s basketball programs. So that’s why you have a Texas who’s the number one seed. They had never…they’ve never been to the Final Four.
Jemele:
Um, and while they didn’t make it this year, they have an incredible freshman that makes that very possible for them in the future.
Errin:
Totally.
Jemele:
We talked about NC State. I covered NC State’s first final Four run in 1998. That was the last time they were in the Final Four. And now here they are, you know, again, with maybe one of the… maybe the best duo in the country in Rivers and James. And so it’s just … you see the growth and you see it everywhere. So back in the, you know, mid-nineties, South Carolina being a dominant power was absurd.
Errin:
Yup.
Jemele:
The idea of it was absolutely absurd. And so, for Dawn Staley to bring the program to this point, to be the type of program that other programs wanna emulate, to attract the type of talent that she has, it speaks to not only why she’s a great coach, but I think there’s a wider message to be sent here about what can happen when you invest in women.
Errin:
Absolutely. And I think that is part of how we got here, right? I mean, this tournament is one of the most exciting in a long time, seriously. Like, viewership for the women’s games are up, I think, something like 121 percent since last year. Uh, you know, we saw the record-setting numbers, uh, with the Iowa LSU game just this week. We were among the 12 million people that tuned in to watch that game. Um, Caitlin Clark’s storyline this year dominating the court also gaining attention. Ice Cube just offered her $5 million to play in the big three. I mean, like, I feel like the Renaissance has hit women’s basketball, right?
Jemele:
And I get it because there’s a lot of new fans and casual observers just now watching the game because Caitlin Clark is a phenomenon unto herself. And she’s brought a level — an unprecedented level — of eyeballs and attention unlike that I have ever seen since I’ve been covering this game. And what it is important to remember — this is in context — I remember when the media was confronted before about their lack of coverage for women’s sports, for women’s basketball, obviously the pushback was, “Well, if there’s dynamic players or, you know, dynamic personalities, it will be covered the same way men are.” But we have seen in various pockets where that has happened, and the media attention span has not lasted. It’s not the players, right? It’s the media. The women’s national title game used to be on CBS. The last time it was on CBS, 7.4 million people watched it.
Jemele:
And so when ESPN got the tournament, they put all the games on ESPN. Now, I know everybody thinks everybody has cable. Everybody does not have cable, alright? And so you saw an automatic decrease. These women lost out on that.
Errin:
Yeah.
Jemele:
There have been a number of different times where millions and millions of people have watched various games. Another reminder: Cheryl Miller’s last collegiate game, 11 million people watched it. So the question hasn’t been, “Why have we never seen, you know, certain types of players in women’s basketball?” They’ve always been there. The question has been, “Why can’t the media hold their attention spans for longer than five seconds?” And the ratings, particularly since the height of lockdown and Covid, have been phenomenal for both the college game and for the WNBA. So I just hope that the media maintains … this time they can finally maintain an attention span [so] that when Caitlin Clark goes to the WNBA, of course cover her there. But there’s an entire sport in women’s college basketball that still deserves the kind of coverage that we’re seeing now.
Errin:
Yeah. I mean, totally agree. Like, everyone watches women’s sports when they have access to it, so like…
Jemele:
Yes.
Errin:
… give them access to it.
Jemele:
That’s one of the big problems, I think, for the WNBA. They’ve worked on it, and certainly it’s available in more places, but, you know, I’ve read some interesting research about this, but women — WNBA fans in particular — tend to be more technologically savvy. And the age group is a much younger fan base than some of the other major professional sports because they often have to, you know, go through different mechanisms to actually find the games — to find the people they wanna watch.
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Jemele:
Because there’s not just a channel constantly running WNBA games, and they’re not spread… I mean, they have multiple television contracts, thankfully, finally. But a lot of times they have to kind of go on a little bit of a hunt to follow the sport that they love. And so I’m hoping over time that this is something that’s remedied, particularly with the WNBA deal coming up. I think this is about to be a real move forward for them in terms of making sure that their fans who love the game, and who have been following it, from the college version to the pro version, will be able to follow them more closely.
Errin:
Yeah. I mean, look, just to get back to the Dawn Staley of it all for a minute, and her impact on this in terms of visibility and just proof of concept, right? I mean, let’s get in the way-back machine to November when we went to go see Dawn Sta—. Well, actually no, let’s get in the way-back machine to when she announced — it was about a year ago, right? — that she said, “Our first game of the season will be in Paris at Notre Dame against Notre Dame.” And we were immediately just, like, our friend group was like, “We are going.”
Jemele:
Yeah, we said it pretty right away. It was like, “Y’all know we going.” We like, “Okay, we going.”
Errin:
Two Black women coaches, two phenomenal programs that were playing on an international stage. I mean, it was history-making. And people showed up.
Jemele:
Oh my goodness. Remember when we were walking the streets? I mean, the number of South Carolina fans that were there.
Errin:
Yes.
Jemele:
I mean, it was a gang of Black people and…
Errin:
Listen, they understood the assignment.
Jemele:
We understood it. We were out there. And, you know, and it was funny how like, the headlines that came out of it could just be by the nature that, you know, you and I and Sunny and Joy Ann Reid, all of us mobbed up to go. You know, it was funny how like … how they sort of put that into context. Like…yeah, yeah. Like you said: You have two phenomenal programs. Even though I hate to give Notre Dame credit for anything ’cause that’s the Michigan State…
Errin:
I know. That hurts you.
Jemele:
It does. That’s the Michigan State hater in me. And you know, it was a moment. You felt it. Like, you felt like, “Okay, this is a moment.” You have, you know, these fan bases that have traveled; You’re further entrenching the game internationally. It was, in addition to being able to fellowship with you guys, like we had a blast at that game. And I hope those kind of moments continue to continue to deepen the fan base in women’s college basketball.
Errin:
Yeah. Same. Uh, and yeah, PS, I mean, women’s basketball games are also lit, okay?
Jemele:
Yes, they are!
Errin:
So, I mean, let’s just call it what it is, too. I mean, like, the storylines going into the women’s tournament were also more exciting than the men’s. I mean, what was that about?
Jemele:
It’s weird because this is such a multi-layered conversation, and we’re recording this after LeBron James had some, I thought, some very eloquent and very thoughtful comments about the women’s game and why it’s exploiting exploding at the way that it is. Um, and the Freudian slip of me saying exploiting, there’s a reason for that. So, obviously, men can be one and done. They can go to the NBA one year removed outta high school, and because of that they’re not sticking around in college very long. So, it used to be that you had to stick around longer. That gave fans an opportunity to know these players, to follow the storylines, to understand their development and growth, to really watch them literally become fantastic players right before their eyes. Now, you don’t get the benefit of that, and the women can’t do that. You have to stay. I believe it’s three years from when you graduate from high school.
Jemele:
It’s something. It’s very similar, I believe, to what the college football rules. Like, they can’t go straight outta high school either. And so, I hate to say it, but the exploitation of the women is part of what’s driving this. It’s that, like, they can’t go to the pros. And we know, as you pointed out, um, in your intro about what the pay disparity is between the WNBA and the NBA. So even if they could, I don’t know that it would necessarily be worth it financially.
Errin:
Yeah.
Jemele:
But maybe for some people it would. But they don’t have the option is the point. So what happens is what Juju Watkins shows up as a freshman at USC, you are gonna get to know Juju Watkins, right? She made it to the Elite Eight this year. Let’s check back in when she’s, like, a junior and it’s gonna be a whole thing because she’s coming for a lot of the records that Caitlin Clark just set.
Jemele:
She just…
Errin:
Yep.
Jemele:
…blew her freshman scoring record out of the water, alright? By over 200 points. So the stars, they’re gonna be cultivated, they’re gonna be marketed, you’re gonna follow the storylines. And so right now, NCAA women’s basketball has the edge in terms of marketing their stars, having the personalities you get to know, um, and it’s different. And, you know, people have to put this into context. I mean, women have not been playing basketball at the NCAA level for long. I mean, the NCAA didn’t have women’s sports, period, until 1982, and they were forced to because of Title IX. So that’s not a long time when you look at how long men were able to grow their game and really become a staple into, uh, American culture. So, you know, what we’re seeing now, I only expect it to rise and to continue.
Errin:
Yeah. Well, look at us turning gender inequality into lemonade. Started from the bottom now we here.
Jemele:
I’m telling you, look at that.
Errin:
It’s crazy.
Jemele:
The rosy side of gender inequality.
Errin:
Who knew?
Jemele:
Who knew?
Errin:
Uh, I mean, but like, look, yeah, storylines were a huge part of this year for the women’s game. And there were some fun storylines, some positive storylines, that you just talked about, but there were also some real issues, again, that came up. LSU still being cast as the villains, particularly Angel Reese. We saw her opening up about the emotional toll that the last year took on her, despite her winning the national championship, right? You had that story outta Utah — a team that experienced racism at that Idaho hotel before this year’s first round. So like, I mean, I think it’s a harsh reminder that there’s this like stricter scrutiny against Black athletes, and, in sports, especially Black women. Um, you know, I don’t know if you wanna get into the Emmanuel Acho of it all.
Emmanuel Acho Clip:
I’m about to give a gender-neutral, racially-indifferent take: Nobody mourns when the villain catches a L, and Angel Reese, you have self proclaimed to be the villain. Shout out to you because you are the second best basketball player on the court, and it was not close. Outside of Caitlin Clark, it was you. Seventeen and 20, dog. But you can’t, under any circ*mstance, go to the podium and now try to ask for individuals to give you sympathy. No one has sympathy for the villain.You painted the bullseye on your back. Why are you surprised when people shoot at you?
Errin:
There is a difference in how the media discusses Black women in sports. And we’re seeing that in this tournament, even.
Jemele:
I mean, Errin, as a career journalist, you understand this very well. And I know you see it a lot of times at the political level, and it’s the same across the board. And, you know, what’s so disappointing about the discourse around Angel Reese is that people, like, point to her behavior on the court. She talks trash. They acted like she, you know, needed to be marched to the guillotine because she gave Iowa’s Caitlin Clark, the “John Cena, you can’t see me” — by the way, something Caitlin Clark had given to Hailey Van Lith before when she was at Louisville. She did the same thing. And so what is very interesting, but also problematic, is that there has been this designed way, conditioned way, that people have been taught that women should compete. And especially Black women, right?
Errin:
Or comport themselves, in general, in public, anywhere.
Jemele:
Correct. Like, we get tone-policed, behavior-policed, all of that. And I think for a lot of people, it’s uncomfortable to see women in these positions carry this, you know … they’re not doing anything that we don’t celebrate men for. We celebrate men for this all the time. Like, when they talk they trash, when when they out there, you know, like making demonstrative gestures, they are celebrated. It’s funny. It becomes a meme. Angel Reese does it, and it’s like, “Oh my God, look at this Black girl. How dare she.” She’s unapologetic about how she carries herself, and people cannot stand this. And it’s something that a lot of women can relate to, but especially, you know, Black women who have been told that we’re angry. And we often have to deal with people seeing just us standing up for ourselves and advocating ourselves as aggressive.
Jemele:
And, you know, I’ve just been disturbed by it. And, um, you know, everybody’s like, “Well, you know, she didn’t mind being the villain,” understanding that that villain role was something cast upon her. Angel Reese has never come out and said, “Make me the villain.” That has never happened. All right? All she did was play her game with her own particular sense of style, and everybody cast her in this light. And listen, Emmanuel Acho, like, clearly he’s allowed to have his opinion. But what I hated about what he said is that he seemed to dismiss all that and say, “Well, if you wanna play the villain,” as if that gives somebody the right to threaten your life. I mean, signing up to play basketball and being a great player doesn’t mean people have a right to threaten you, okay?
Errin:
No.
Jemele:
And say, “I’m going to kill you over basketball.”
Errin:
Don’t remember seeing that in the job description.
Jemele:
I don’t remember seeing that in the job description or in any contract. It’s not in the fine print. So, really, the issue is with people who are dumb enough and unhinged enough to be sending college athletes death threats over basketball games. That’s the issue, right?
Errin:
Yeah.
Jemele:
Not Angel Reese. And then it just is the wider lens of this is how Black women often do not have spaces to be soft. We often don’t have spaces to be vulnerable, delicate. We’re not treated that way. That’s why I’ve always thought that the strong Black woman caricature and moniker is a blessing and a curse. Yes, women can handle — Black women, all women can handle — a lot of things. We the greatest multitaskers on Earth. We have to compartmentalize. We have to do so much. It takes so much every day to wake up and be a woman, right?
Jemele:
And especially to be a Black woman. And we all deal with that. And we suck it up and we keep going. But at some point, the fort breaks. And I think because we don’t have that space to have these vulnerabilities and to show them very often, that’s why so many of us understand that we can’t, and why Black women ride so hard for each other. Because as soon as his comments went viral, a lot of Black women in sports in particular — I’m thinking of Taylor Rooks..
Errin:
Yes
Jemele:
…who wrote a very impassioned, um, Twitter post about defending Angel Reese against Emmanuel Acho’s comments — that’s why we ride. That’s why we ride at dawn. This is exactly why: Because we don’t get the same concessions and the same level of compassion that other women often get. And so, uh, in this moment, I find myself feeling a great deal of empathy for Angel Reese and the position she’s been put in. We can’t say that we want people to be genuine in their stories, and then when we hear them, we call them whiners. So I just reject so much of the discourse that has been around this young lady, because I think it is exposing misogynoir. It’s exposing the misogyny in general, and the racism. And so…
Errin:
Absolutely.
Jemele:
…I just hope that as she, you know, makes this launch to the next level, that she’s able to, you know, continue to be in circles that give her the kind of support that she needs.
Errin:
I mean, yeah, wanting us to be resilient while nobody else has to really do better, like…no. We’re done with that.
Jemele:
Yeah.
Errin:
And 1000% on team “talk your sh*t,” sis. So, uh, whether you are a Black woman on or off the court, like I’m 1000% here for that.
Jemele:
This idea that her behavior on the court makes her open to be subjected to, you know, things off the court is just kind of ludicrous. Like, that should never have been the case. But I wish Angel well at the next level, and it’s gonna be really fun to see her, uh, develop, um, in the professional atmosphere.
Errin:
You saw that — that Vogue flex.
Jemele:
Oh, yeah.
Errin:
Uh, you know, even announcing that she was going to the WNBA. I wanna ask you, just, I mean, for some college athletes, the whole “Name, image and likeness thing” … that is the most money that they make playing. And for other athletes, you know, being a pro over, you know, taking that NIL money, is appealing for Angel Reese. I don’t know. I kind of feel like the money’s gonna be there regardless.
Jemele:
Oh, it is. I mean, and people have to understand that NIL money doesn’t run out. Like, Gatorade … if Gatorade signed her before this season, like that contract still exists like once she moves on. And what I loved about the Vogue thing — about her making her announcement in Vogue — it shows you how much more media-savvy this generation of athletes, especially women athletes, are. NIL has been a game-changer for women in particular, because they do not have the same professional riches to look forward to. The WNBA is the most successful professional American women’s league we’ve ever had, and there’s still some equity issues to work out there. Now, I’m not saying that at, you know, the number one pick in the WNBA draft should make the same as LeBron James. There are in two different spaces as leagues, but it shouldn’t be what it is.
Jemele:
And…
Errin:
Right.
Jemele:
… Um, until that disparity is addressed, the endorsem*nt potential of these women is a great … is a big factor. Angel Reese moves the needle, and I think there’s gonna be a lot of brands who wanna be associated with her. And NIL in particular, I think, it has allowed women to really be very smart with how they’re branded. When you look at social media following, she has millions of followers. And that is the part that these brands are looking at. And I think the last I saw is that Angel Reese made about $2 million, I think, in the last year.
Errin:
Year. That’s right.
Jemele:
Yeah. Yeah. Two million dollars. And so she is taking all that brand potential with her, because now, you know, it used to be that women were imprisoned to TV platforms. Like, “Oh, they’re not on TV enough, so like, what do we really wanna invest?” But social media has changed the game. And when you look at college sports in general, all of the, um, banging Instagram accounts — all of the people with the highest follower accounts — are all female athletes.
Errin:
Yep.
Jemele:
Yeah. From the gymnasts … Look, they getting paid on the low.
Errin:
Getting those, getting those yoga pants.
Jemele:
You know what I’m saying? They getting this Lululemon bread. Like these college women, college gymnasts, they are making some bread, Jack! And, um, this has opened up a new door and allowed them to have a financial future that, while it does not mirror men, it allows them to get themselves into the conversation and become millionaires while they’re still able to capitalize on their athletic success.
Errin:
Okay, so, while we’re doing a little bit of math, let’s do some more math…
Jemele:
Okay. My favorite subject.
Errin:
Journalism and math. Uh, yeah. Not always a good pair, but, like, look, okay, so: WNBA math. In the WNBA, you got 12 teams. Each team has the limit of signing 12 active players to their roster each season. So that’s 144 spots. You had 64 teams that just competed in March Madness. You can do the math, right?
Jemele:
Yep.
Errin:
Like, on top of that, like, the maximum amount that each team can spend on the total salary of all of its players is about $1.4 million. This is compared to the NBA salary cap, by the way, of $141 million.
Jemele:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
Why is the gap that wide, Jemele?
Jemele:
Well, it’s a lot of reasons. The comparisons to themen’s game, you know, they help you put things into context, but it’s also an unfair comparison because, you know, the NBA has existed for so much longer, and they were able to exist during periods where not a lot was competing for American attention. And so that allowed them to get stronger and stronger. But if you want to compare, I mean, the WNBA is almost 30, I think. And, so, if you wanna compare where the NBA was after 30 years, I think that’s probably a good comparison.
Errin:
Mm. Yeah.
Jemele:
And you know, it used to be that NBA players had part-time jobs. Like, they could not rely on their NBA salary. And kind of the same now for the WNBA, but they’re raising more and more capital, but they have to compete in a media landscape where you have streaming services, you have 9 billion sports on TV at all times.
Jemele:
So I think the road and the path to success looks a lot different. But what I do love about where the WNBA is that not only are ratings soaring, but you’re also getting new owners. And that’s an important piece of this, because you’re getting people who want to buy into the game. You know, the original motto in the setup was that every NBA team had to take WNBA team. So you’re getting an NBA owner who only cared about the NBA, really. That’s why they got a team. And the WNBA was — I hate to use this word, but it’s what comes to mind — was the WNBA team was a “throw-in.” Now that’s not the case. You have people who have bought WNBA teams from NBA owners, and you could tell. You could tell the difference. Now the pay disparity, the marketing and the brand placement disparity, is different because the men have frankly had longer, and they’ve had an opportunity to entrench themselves in American culture.
Jemele:
The women are now getting that same opportunity. And there’s a lot of ground to be made up. I remind people again, Title IX happened in, what?
Errin:
We just marked the 50th anniversary of Title IX.
Jemele:
Only 50 years in which we have seen women being able to compete, or have access to, sports. Like, not even at an equitable level. Um, ’cause talk to some older female basketball players about what them seventies and the eighties looked like, and you will hear some horrific stories about the type of treatment they were subjected to in terms of facilities, in terms of practice times, hotels. You know, they was all on bus rides. A plane? What is a plane?
Errin:
Right.
Jemele:
You know? Right.
Errin:
And not the good bus. The struggle bus.
Jemele:
The struggle bus. Um, I know the WNBA just had a major capital-raising campaign — maybe like a year or two years ago — that influxed even more dollars into the league.
Jemele:
But it’s going to take some time. And, more importantly, it’s gonna take people who stop seeing, um, you know, the league as some kind of anomaly and not understanding that it’s here to stay. It’s a worthwhile investment. Because it used to be it wasn’t considered an investment — meaning it wasn’t considered something that you would get a return on your dollars. Now, that is definitely not the case. And, if anything, I would submit that women’s sports is horribly undervalued. And a lot of it has to do with the gatekeepers still unable to see what this potential is. I mean, it’s gigantic. But there’s more, newer, younger, different investors who do see the potential in this product. And I think as the league continues to grow and expand, you’re gonna see more of that. I mean, you have the San Francisco is getting a WNBA team. I think that’s huge. Expansion is a big part of it.
Errin:
Uh, don’t get me started on teams. Like, seriously, Philadelphia. Biggest city–
Jemele:
Yeah.
Errin:
—that still does does not have it. We thought it was gonna be us.
Jemele:
Yep.
Errin:
It was San Francisco this year. Am I pissed? Yes, absolutely. One-thousand percent. Absolutely. But also, like, to your point, like, the Las Vegas Aces, two-time champions, have their first sold-out season this year. Like, that’s historic.
Jemele:
Yeah, it is. And so I think they’ve gotta get to a point where their best players don’t have to play overseas. Because we saw what happened with Brianna Stewart. She played overseas, she got hurt. She wound up missing a WNBA season because of it. And that, to me, like, they should have very immediate short-term goals that you have got to be able to pay these women enough to where they can stay here in America. It was great ’cause last year, I believe, was the most … the longest WNBA season they’ve ever had on record. So it was more, you know, they keep adding more games. ‘Cause it used to be a, I mean, it still is a very truncated window in which they’re playing as they expand the number of games, as they expand the number of teams, as they expand the number of roster spots. I think the runway is there for them to really further take off in a major way.
Errin:
Yeah, I think that’s right. But, I mean, to your point there, there is, I think, part of that sense of urgency is because we see some of the consequences of what happens when these players do have to go overseas to make money. I mean, you mentioned Brianna Stewart, but also Brittany Griner, obviously.
Jemele:
Brittany Griner, yes.
Errin:
That whole situation. I mean, her situation really did kind of put this issue in the spotlight.
Jemele:
It did.
Errin:
Her being detained in Russia for nine months. What would a collective bargaining agreement look like for players moving forward to have a fair wage? I mean, we’re thinking about trying to imagine the world where we can close the gap here.
Jemele:
First hurdle — and I almost feel like I’m devaluing — but they gotta be able to figure out how, um, the, the minimum should be six figures. The minimum should be six figures. Like, that’s the starting point. I remember when the league first started, and I believe, uh, it was started, you know, right after, um, you know, the ‘96 Olympics.
Errin:
The dream team.
Jemele:
The dream team. And that was the impetus. Like, “Now is the time to start a professional league.” And so they hinged the league essentially off Sheryl Swoopes, Rebecca Lobo, and who is the third player I’m forgetting? It’s not Cynthia Cooper.
Errin:
Lisa Leslie.
Jemele:
Lisa Leslie. Sorry, yes. My apologies, Lisa. So they hinged the entire league off of them, their names, their brand. ‘Cause they were huge at the time. And they were the only players making an incredible amount of money. I mean, if memory serves, they were each making over $200,000, right? Um, and that was on purpose because they needed their best players — their biggest names, faces of the league — to really drive this league. So now, you know, fast forward, there are WNBA players that are making six figures. It’s just very few of them.
Errin:
Right.
Jemele:
And I think, um, they have got to get to a point where the twelfth woman on the bench is able to make six figures because I think that would decrease greatly the likelihood of them going overseas. Not completely, because, you know, people have to understand, you know, [a] big reason Brittany Griner was in Russia ’cause she was making a million dollars, alright?
Jemele:
And so that salary cap has got to expand by a lot. But if you can have your league vet minimum at six figures, that goes a long way. And your highest players, your biggest talent, have to be able to make a lot of money. We talking about, you know, maybe five, six-hundred thousand dollars, like something in that range so that they don’t feel like, “Oh, I gotta go over to China to make some money.” That between their endorsem*nts — um, you know, maybe like Candace Parker who has an amazing media career — they’re able to supplement their income. So, what the WNBA collective bargaining agreement looks like now versus what it did at the beginning — leaps and bounds, you know. In terms of healthcare, um, you know, a lot of hard-fought, player-earned rights are in this collective bargaining agreement that weren’t there before. But, you know, they’re going to eventually be heading to a moment where there’s gonna be a lot more contentiousness with this collective bargaining agreement because, you know, the women see the dollars starting to come in and they deserve a bigger piece of what they’re bringing in.
Jemele:
Agreed. And, and I mean, um, just continue to talk about some of the positives: The WNBA in its relationship to activism, right? Because this league has a sizable amount of LGBTQIA+ players, a lot of the league’s fans are also members of the community, how do you think that the makeup of the WNBA affects how this league is covered?
Jemele:
Oh, a tremendous amount. The WNBA, in the early stages — I don’t think they’re completely aware of this, but they’re not nearly as bad as they used to be. And that’s not to give them credit, but part of the reason that the league was encouraging players not to live their lives out loud was because they were afraid that they wouldn’t be considered to be marketable. You know, that you can’t market a queer player who has a family. I’m like, “She’s just as family-oriented as somebody who’s heterosexual.”
Errin:
Hello.
Jemele:
Right?
Errin:
And their family’s adorable and also marketable
Jemele:
Exactly. Exactly, right? And so that wasn’t considered marketable. And so the WNBA treated its community like a dirty secret. And, um, I think that did do some lasting damage to their credibility as a league. And so now that that layer — or at least some layers of that — has been removed, it’s a lot different. And we become, while not necessarily completely, uh, you know — we don’t deserve an A in this area — but society has obviously advanced a lot since that time. And so I think that’s the struggle. And that’s something that they often get burdened with is that because they do have such a strong LGBTQ+ fan base, and because you do have players who are out, that they sometimes awkwardly deal with this fact in a way that is a disservice to the fans and to the players, you know? And that’s why activism, I think, is so strong in the WNBA: These women are completely used to having to fight for their existence, and their equity, at every single step, which is why they like, “This fight ain’t nothing new for us, homie.” Right? Like, “We good with it.” You know?
Errin:
Yep. Built for this.
Jemele:
They are extraordinarily built for this. And I think as long as they continue to push those boundaries, that the league will continue to figure out ways to market who these women are in their full selves.
Errin:
I am so glad we got to talk about all this.
Jemele:
Same!
Errin:
Oh my god. And I know we are gonna be watching this weekend and trash-talking each other in the group chat.
Jemele:
Oh, exactly.
Errin:
So, looking forward to it, my friend.
Jemele:
Uh, I appreciate you Laura. Oh, I’m sorry. Errin
Jemele:
Inside joke from the chat. Don’t even worry about it y’all
Errin:
And now, for this week’s asterisk, I wanna talk about the exhausting resilience of Black women. Let’s start with Beyoncé whose resilience gave us “Cowboy Carter.” She channeled her rejection by the country music class into a clinic on the genre, which she has made her own in a chart-topping album that is certain to translate into a multimillion dollar tour. But I still have to wonder if there isn’t some part of this moment that still stings. I thought about that during my conversation with Jemele Hill, and while watching Angel Reese’s press conference after her LSU team lost to Iowa last week. Reese talked about the emotional toll of the misogynoir attacks against her in the last year — a year, by the way, when she should have been celebrating the team’s national championship. Her vulnerability in that press conference was met with more criticism by some, but her resilience was on display as she boldly declared her decision to enter the WNBA draft in the pages of Vogue.
Errin:
Still a winner, but at what cost? These kind of attacks are really not supposed to be part of the job. This November, Black women are again being asked to be resilient at the polls as we have been cycle after cycle. The message is that our output continues to be more valuable than our input. I wrote in 2020 that Black female voters say they want what they’re owed — power. Will they get it this year? TBD. So that’s my asterisk for this week, and that is this week’s episode of The Amendment, which is also a newsletter, by the way, that I write. You can subscribe to it for free by going to 19thnews.org, where you can also find all of our great journalism around gender, politics and policy. For the 19th News and Wonder Media Network, I’m Errin Haines. Talk to you again next week. The Amendment is a co-production of the 19th News and Wonder Media Network. It is executive produced by Jenny Kaplan, Terri Rupar and Faith Smith. Our head of development is Emily Rudder. Julia B. Chan is the 19th editor-in-chief. The Amendment is edited by Jenny Kaplan, Grace Lynch and Emily Rudder, and was produced by Adesuwa, Agbonile, Grace Lynch, Brittany Martinez and Taylor Williamson with production assistance from Lucy Jones, artwork by Aria Goodman. Our theme music was composed by Jlin.
The Amendment is a new political podcast, co-produced by Wonder Media Network and The 19th News.
Explore all episodes
